Tape 1, August 16, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L:	Was David Miscavige saying this?
J:	No, Marty saying it to David Miscavige and Gene Ingram was there, and I'm there and Vicky's there. Then Dave would just be elated about this, he'd be so happy, "OK, OK, OK." Then now, the next day, "Charlie got beat up, oh man it was so funny, if you could have seen see his face," Marty's telling this to me and Vicky, no it was me and Vicky was there, Dave Miscavige was there, Norman Starkey was there. They were just hooting and hollering and thinking this was the greatest thing that happened since sliced bread. Gene Ingram was there and he wouldn't speak when I was there, but Marty would kind of come and tell the story. Gene Ingram was kind of kept away from everybody. It is my belief that they orchestrated that confrontation that O'Rielly had.
L:	Did Marty or anyone ever say that anything which directly lead you to believe that they were involved in getting Charlie beat up?
J:	It seemed, like I said, in days prior, they were orchestrating something that would set something off like that. The details escape me. It was like a hard meeting every time, "OK, what did he do, where did he go? OK, this is what we're going to do, that is that we're going to do." They're planning it, so it seems like it was orchestrated for that to happen.
L:	If you remember more details abut that, let me know, if you remember any conversations, anything anybody specifically said -
J:	They was like, why are you even saying this around Jesse? He was so happy, had to tell someone.
L:	David Miscavige?
J:	Yes.
L:	Did he say, "Charlie got what he deserved", did he say "Charlie got a surprise"?
J:	No, he would be just insanely laughing, happy.
L:	Did you ever hear anything about Judge Swearinger's dog being drown? Nothing at all. He had a little collie that somebody climbed over the fence and drowned the dog in the pool.
J:	Maybe Marty. But it's just faint. It may take me a day or a day or a half after we have this conversation to remember.
L:	I'm going to throw some stuff out that you may have never heard. One of the biggest things that happens to people who stand up to Scientology is their pets start dying. Their animals disappear or die, it's been a pattern through the IRS investigators who were having problems with their pets, I've had problems with pets. Other people who have stood up to Scientology. Do you have any knowledge about anyone every talking about hurting an animal because it's not a felony and it sends a signal, it's close to the family, and it really sends a terror signal.
J:	Nothing like that, not in those terms, but I remember being in an ASI boardroom -- and again this is something that will come to me more strongly later -- where Marty was talking the godfather movie when the horse head appeared. He was alluding to doing this to other people that were critics of Scientology, scaring people by doing it. I do remember.
L:	Do you remember any more specifics about what he said?
J:	I remember, this is what I remember. David Miscavige was there, Norm was there, I was there, Vicky was there, Marty was there, some other, maybe somebody from OSA, I'm trying to think who it would have been. Maybe Edith Bucaley, and Klaus Bucaley used to be over the OSA network. I remember at a break period, Marty bringing it up. I think one of the attorneys was there, I don't know if it was John Peterson. It could have been Joe, I doubt it.
L:	Joe Yanni?
J:	Yeah, because Joe used to be an attorney for the church. Anyway, we were in that meeting and they were making a joke about how intense that scene was, and maybe perpetrating something similar to that on other people. I remember Dave saying, look, shutup, don't talk about that kinda stuff. That's what I remember right now, specifically about it. I may remember more about it later. That's what comes to mind now.
L:	Do you recall any other instances involving another, you talked about Charlie, involving any lawyers, any judges, any clerks, sometimes to get a clerk to bury a document, change a document, change an evidence. Do you ever remember hearing anything about altering the court records or tampering with a judge, or intimidating a judge, or letting them know that they have blackmail on them.
J:	I think they did something to try to intimidate Judge Breckenridge. I think they did. The way that I think it was done, and because I wasn't directly involved I can't tell you, "It happened Sunday at 12:15," that type of thing. What they did was influence, just like they do now. They go to your friends and family and say, well, it's not them that's doing it, they are paying people to do it, like have a lawyer go and say, "Hey, you are good friends with so and so, why don't you - Maybe this Breckenridge is getting a little bit out of hand." Try to get the judge's peers to say, "Hey look, you're out of line." This is what a program or operation that they had going for Breckenridge, to discredit him as a judge. I think they took articles out, they did quite a bit during that time.
L:	They actually paid people to go to his friends and ask the friends or the associates of the judge to go to the judge and tell him he was out of line, with the way he was treating Scientology?
J:	Right.
L:	That's interesting, that is very interesting.
J:	That's part of their policy, the ODC, they use that as a form of intimidation in and of itself. Like Lynn Farney would be a key one that would orchestrate that kind of shit, where they would just say he's slandering Scientology and try or dig up some dirt. Dig up crimes, he did this, he drinks, he runs around with whores, whatever.
L:	Would they give that to the people that they were trying to influence, that they were trying to get to influence the judge? In other words would they say,
J:	They would give that to friends, family associates, spread that kind of idea.
L:	What they picked up in their investigation?
J:	To back the judges off.
L:	This is an important subtlety, because if they are gathering information about the judge's sex life, his business life, his credit, anything that would embarrass or discredit him, then giving it to his associates.
J:	Let me finish. They would do ODC and CDC.
L:	CDC is what?
J:	Covert data collection.
L:	Tell us about covert data collection.
J:	Now ODC, you can go and get public records; CDC is going around and interviewing friends, associates, somehow getting ahold of bank records, somehow getting ahold of phone records.
L:	When you say somehow, would they obtain these in a legal manner, to the best of your knowledge?
J:	No. They would pay people to do it for them.
L:	They would pay someone else.
J:	- .like a private investigator, if he said, "I can do this, I can get this."
L:	I can get illegal bank records, illegal phone records. They would knowingly pay him, he would tell the church, "I can get these illegal records," and the church would pay them. The people that would pay them are the attorneys.
J:	It would come through OSA, and the attorneys would pay the private investigators for investigation. It was like it was all legal, it looks all perfectly fine, but it would go from OSA to the attorneys they hired to the investigators, and that's how they get their information.
L:	Would the investigators tell the attorneys that they could get these illegal bank records and phone records, or would they tell -
J:	Let me lay it out for you, OK. This is how it would be done. They had certain investigators, it's like a network, Gene Ingram being the main one. He knows and works with all of these others. The thing would happen like this, "Hey Gene, it would be nice if we could get his bank records or his phone numbers to see who he's calling." Or whatever else.