Tape 1, August 16, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L:	You bugged your own staff members?
J:	Rick and I are sitting out in a field with headphones on, while this guy and his wife were having sex, doing whatever they're doing. It was horrible. They'd go to sleep. This would go on night after night, after night. It's beyond -
L:	Would you think that tactic had been used on other staff members who they thought might be blowing things, this is not a rare exception?
J:	No.
L:	The illegal wiretapping of their own ministers, they are ministers, staff members, because staff members are now ministers, I believe?
J:	Oh yeah, they had to be, some kind of crazy thing came up in the 80's.
L:	So, they are bugging their own ministers without their permission?
J:	Yeah, using high tech spy equipment, radio receivers, radio transmitters, bugging devices.
L:	Go on with -
J:	OK, it was Friday, too late to get in a motion with the judge. The whole weekend is going to pass and they're having a party, and through intelligence it was discovered that Mayo was going to give these packs to certain people to start these groups. Robin Scott was one of them, over in England, Maura [?] Steve Bell Maine [?] in Scotland and England, and there was some people in Copenhagen, I don't remember their names. The church was in a panic about that because they had done their ODC so very well, they were sending staff members like Lynn Farney and other OSA people to her house to bring her this motion to try to get it. Which was not successful, because something happened, security got pissed off at them, and they didn't get her to just grant an immediate TRO and we ended up having to go to court on it, she granted it at that time.
L:	Did she disclose that you had come to her house privately? Did she disclose that?
J:	No, there was never any mention of that.
L:	Was there a lawyer with Lynn Farney when they went to approach the judge privately? Do you have any recollection?
J:	No. I don't think that there was. I don't think that there was.
L:	So, Farney himself went to the judge's home?
J:	Right, standing out there.
L:	Did he have something for her to sign?
J:	Yeah, he had the papers.
L:	And some attorney in Scientology had prepared that?
J:	Yes.
L:	The security would not let Farney into the house. Continue on with the story.
J:	The following Monday, or Tuesday, I don't remember which, is where the story co-joined with what I told you earlier, where we were in court and went to the judge's back chambers and got her and got the TRO that day. Later on an investigation was being done in relationship to that specific suit. At this time, when that investigation started, I was no longer in a high position; I'm basically lower than whale shit. It was explained to me, and I don't even remember the case, that the church was being accused of judge tampering. The FBI wanted to talk to me, specifically, of all damn people, who knew the least, to go in and talk to them. I just basically went up and told them what I told you. I was told that some people went out there, and it was an unsuccessful thing, but beyond that I didn't know. But, in retrospect, if you look at the ODC that they do on the judge, on every judge that they get, and how they then send professionals in to talk to people that are close to them, to really test the waters, this is the way it works.
L:	Are they sending in people like
J:	Attorneys.
L:	Are they sending people in close to leak out bits of the information that they've collected for the purpose of intimidating the judge?
J:	No, first they will try to find out, how does the judge feel about Scientology. Let some friend of a friend of a friend find out. They're paying money, big money, for this information. They will do that and try to coerce any attorney, "Look, this is what we need, you've got an in, you want to make a little quick money, do this."
L:	So, they find out how the judge feels, that's not illegal, that's just investigation. Where do you feel that, what else, did you hear something else that makes you think that they tampered with this judge.
J:	No, I haven't heard anything else beyond that. I don't think that the judge herself, in all honestly, this is my opinion, was that way. I don't think she was that way. I think she made a decision based on the evidence. Here's stuff that Scientology says is theirs, even they acknowledge, yes, this was Mayo's state of mind. He didn't say, hey, I wrote these things. He didn't say that.
L:	Still so brainwashed. He didn't say that, that's amazing.
J:	So it was like, what was she supposed to do?
L:	Did you ever hear anything that they in any way told her they had personal information about her through any source?
J:	I know they knew who her husband was, and I knew they just knew everything about her.
L:	OK. Let's talk about is there any other judge, or members of the court, that you know that Scientology may have tampered with, bribed, intimidated?
J:	Charles O'Rielly. I think that they had him beat up one night in a club. This was done in conjunction with Gene, their PI.
L:	Gene Ingram.
J:	Gene Ingram. There was some club. This was during the trial, I guess it was your trial, as a matter of fact. They were in Los Angeles, and there was this club that Charles O'Rielly liked to go to. It was known that he liked to go there. They were just insane about this Charles O'Rielly. Specifically, I remember this, the day after Charles was beat up, no, I back it up. Marty Rathbun and Gene Ingram were heavily into following Charles from the time the courtroom was over. Wasn't it Breckenridge that was the judge?
L:	No it wasn't Breckenridge, it was Swearinger.
J:	Swearinger. They hated that judge and they hated Charles O'Rielly, because apparently - . I was not necessarily involved in that, because that was not anything that had anything to do with trademarks, and I was primarily concerned with trademarks in my executive position in the church.
L:	What did you hear?
J:	What I was hearing days prior to Charles actually getting beat up, and then days after, was, this like something between David Miscavige, Marty Rathbun and Gene Ingram. Because I was at ASI on other matters, I would hear some of this stuff. But Dave Miscavige made it very clear that this was on a need to know basis, what Gene Ingram and Marty were doing in relation to Charles O'Rielly going to this club that he liked to go to. Days prior to it they were talking, "yeah, he really runs his month somebody's going to beat him up. He's really loud and boisterous, he's such an asshole and we had so and so in there and so and so - ."
L:	So and so in the club?
J:	Yeah, other investigators, other people watching him, tricking him, doing things to deceive him, like buying him a drink, talking to him. Then it seemed like there was a day when they said, we know where this guy's at, we know what we're going to do, in relation to Charles O'Rielly. He's going to get a big surprise. This is what I remember, specifically, and then -