Tape 3, August 25, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L:	Do you have any idea what could have happened?
J:	Yeah, he never got the message, or you know, and I just have a theory that I heard, by that time that he was pretty far gone, and couldn't hold a train of thought anyway.
L:	Who else told you Hubbard was pretty far gone and couldn't hold a train of thought?
J:	Rick Aznaran.
L:	How would he know that?
J:	Because he was there, and the hired farm hands that they had said that -- Rick Aznaran related this story to me -- that often they would hear L. Ron Hubbard screaming at BTs late in the night. He was heavily medicated with drugs from Dr. Dink like valium, the this the that, and the other thing.
L:	Tranquilizers?
J:	Tranquilizers, and then he's experimenting with drugs, he's getting any kind of drug he wants to from Dink.
L:	Any possibility of anti-psychotics?
J:	Yeah, I do believe he had some of those too. Rick said there was a cabinet full of all kind of prescription medicine that you could ever imagine when they went to where he was an opened his medicine drawer. He said that amazed him because it's a strict policy of Scientology not to take any drugs whatsoever, any kind of medical drugs whatsoever. You just don't take them. And here he had a zillion of them. I've also since talked to Dennis Erlich who told me about a person who used to deliver cocaine and marijuana to L. Ron Hubbard, as well as LSD and other things, and knew him just in passing because Dennis was having an association with him or something. They were at some concert together, because Dennis does concerts. They got to talking, Dennis mentioned that he'd been in Scientology, and this person said to him, "Oh, I know L. Ron Hubbard, I used to bring him his drugs up there in Preston where he was."
L:	Anyone else, at this point in 1985 that you can recall said to you, that had experience with L. Ron Hubbard, that he was not mentally sound or coherent, or competent?
J:	Pat Broeker kind of gave me that idea.
L:	What did he say that made you believe that?
J:	He just said, this is just after we did that sect check. He said, "Well, I think you did a good job. The old man has a lot on his mind, and we're just trying to keep stuff off his lines." Which is Scientology jargon, which simply means that he is a little bit tied up and what he doesn't know won't hurt him.
L:	Did you hear anybody else besides David Miscavige and Rick Aznaran, Pat Broeker, imply to you that in 1985 L. Ron Hubbard was mentally incompetent?
J:	Vicky mentioned to me that she had gotten word prior to him dying that he was sick. She didn't know how it was, she just told me she had talked to Annie, who said he wasn't doing well. That's the beginning and the end of it.
L:	Continue with - .
J:	Now after he passed, I was there, when Mary Sue Hubbard was made to sign an agreement, I do believe it was $100,000 to relinquish any kind of claim on the copyrights, or trademarks, or bank accounts, or anything to do with the Scientology fortune. I was part of like a 12 or 17 man team of people that just invaded her house, and was all a pretty cordial affair. She didn't want to sign the damn thing. Lawyers were there, David Miscavige started screaming, "You are going to sign it!"
L:	He was screaming at her, "You're going to sign this document"?
J:	We were all there, browbeating her
L:	12 to 17 people?
J:	Yeah, all in Sea Org uniforms. All in cars everywhere, just going in there and overwhelming this poor little old lady.
L:	Would u say that you were an intimidating presence?
J:	Beyond any question.
L:	Would you say that Mary Sue Hubbard was coerced into signing an agreement?
J:	It's beyond any question. As well as Arthur, I was there when he signed it too. He got $50,000.
L:	He got $50,000. Did they have their own lawyers there who looked at the documents?
J:	No, no. They had no representation. All the Scientology lawyers were there, and they would just sit down, this is what they lawyers say, sign here.
L:	Were the allowed to read the documents?
J:	Yeah, but I don't think they knew what they were reading.
L:	So the Scientology lawyers were there, did they act like they were representing Mary Sue Hubbard or Arthur in advising them in any legal way at all on the document?
J:	No.
L:	What lawyers were there?
J:	I believe Larry Heller.
L:	Anyone else?
J:	Not that I specifically recall, but that doesn't mean that no one was there.
L:	So, Larry Heller was there in this incredibly coercive environment. Were these men, these 12 to 17 people in Sea Org uniforms?
J:	All men, except Vicky Aznaran.
L:	Were they big men?
J:	Big men. Lyman, Norman, Marty, me.
L:	Was there any kind of spoken or unspoken threat that if she didn't sign this document there would be trouble for her or her family?
J:	Trouble for her, yes.
L:	What was said?
J:	Going to get sec checked, going to get auditing, going to get this, ethics, whatever. She blew up, she said, "No, I'm going to sec check you to find out what the hell you're trying to do to me."
L:	So she was threatened with a security check, and ethics, which meant that she would have to work through conditions and do all kinds of menial, manual labor?
J:	No, just have someone sitting with her in her house. She wasn't very functional. She had a couple of Scientologists who watched her every move and reported to David Miscavige every day about her.
L:	They lived in her house?
J:	They lived in her house and reported on her every single day.