Tape 3, August 25, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L:	Did they ever direct that those documents be destroyed to hide from the government, from the IRS, from anyone who looked at Scientology's corporate structure?
J:	Yes. They told David Miscavige in no uncertain terms, "None of these things, these advises, can be anywhere."
L:	So, in essence, destroy this evidence. The attorneys did.
J:	Right.
L:	The Lenskes, were they aware of the actions of the private investigators.
J:	Very much so.
L:	Were you ever sitting in a room where any -
J:	I'll tell you a specific thing that happened. Marty was bringing up something about something PIs were doing. I can't tell you the specifics, but I can tell you is this. Sherman leaned over to Dave and said, "Look, I don't want to have this kind of talk around here. I don't know what your security is, I don't want to be a party to hearing this stuff. I know about it, but, not in a room full of people like this."
L:	Marty was talking about illegal operations that private investigators were doing, and Lenske was sitting there and said -
J:	"Woah, wait a minute, I don't want to be here."
L:	Were you ever at another meeting, or any other meeting where the Lenskes maybe, a smaller group, where any illegal activities were discussed?
J:	Similar situation. We would all be in a meeting about one thing, and then we would bring up investigations and who we were going to have do what, and they would excuse themselves. They didn't want people seeing them knowing about this stuff. They very much worked with David and Lyman, majorly those four, because David would then come in tell us what Sherman and his little brother, Dan, I think it was, would say, and we would act on that advice, based on the information they were given about investigations from like whatever.
L:	Do you recall any of the comments that David Miscavige said that the Lenskes wanted to have happen?
J:	Not specifically.
L:	Do you believe that the attorneys, there has been theory that the attorneys control Miscavige, and Miscavige controls Scientology. Did you ever see anything to make you think that that real control of Scientology exists with the Hellers and the Lenskes and that they have enough on Miscavige to take Miscavige out and Miscavige -
J:	Yeah, I think there's definitely that kind of relationship that exists there, but I think that their hands are so dirty and blood drips from all their hands that they protect each other.
L:	So, they all go down together, and they all survive together?
J:	Right.
L:	What kind of money do you think these, the Hellers, and the Lenskes are taken out of Scientology every year?
J:	Many millions.
L:	Millions of dollars each year?
J:	At least when I was there, I can't speak of what's been happening from 1990 to 1998. I know that during the time I was there, 1982 to 1987, millions.
L:	Estimate how many millions might have went to the Lenske firm?
J:	7, 8... L; 7,8 million. The Heller firm, Larry Heller?
J:	I'm sure he made about 4 or 5 million.
L:	Were they performing lawsuit duties, or was this -
J:	No, they were just acting as counsel. They had other little attorneys, they would discuss it with Dave, Norman, sometimes. Norman is just not that bright, he just doesn't get it. It would majorly be the CPA, Lyman Spurlock.
L:	Do you think that they were being paid for work, or being paid to just have their piece of Scientology because they had been involved in some of these activities and everybody has to have their piece of the pie?
J:	It seemed like to me, they had a definite piece of the pie. There were just so many attorneys in Scientology, all these juniors. Earl Cooley never held the position like Heller and the Lenske brothers, he never rose to that, never, never, never. These were L Ron Hubbard's personal attorneys. How useful they are today, I don't know. They have probably been retired to a greater or lesser degree because there is only so much of that people want.
L:	Let's talk about the L. Ron Hubbard estate. Are you aware of any fraud in the probate or in the getting the Hubbard to sign any kind of coercion on any Hubbard family member to sign away their rights to the estate, any threats, any intimidation?
J:	Don't ask me too much at once. What I know about the probate case is that L. Ron Hubbard, it was being demanded that L. Ron Hubbard appear on his own behalf. I know for a fact that everyone, including myself, knew exactly where he was at all times. The court was being lied to to say "We didn't know where he was." They could have produced him at any time.
L:	All the Scientology officials that were swearing out affidavits were committing perjury? Were the lawyers aware that they knew where Scientology was?
J:	Yes.
L:	So the lawyers, who were the lawyers, Heller, Lenske, these lawyers were lying to the probate court, having full knowledge that everybody knew where L. Ron Hubbard was:
J:	Right.
L:	So they committed the fraud to keep L. Ron Hubbard from appearing?
J:	Yeah. And, you got to dig this point. The reason being is because David Miscavige and the Lenske brother didn't think he could stand up to it. They didn't think he was stable enough, they thought he was a little fucking crazy. I got this straight from David Miscavige.
L:	David Miscavige said that he believed L. Ron Hubbard was crazy?
J:	Yeah, couldn't get up to this, and it'd be a mess.
L:	That he was not functionally aware enough, or mentally capable enough?
J:	Right, mentally capable of getting through appearing in court.
L:	So, Miscavige, you heard this. Was anyone else in the room when you heard this. He said to this to me private. He said, "Jesse, listen, you've got to grow up, you've got to know something, OK? L. Ron Hubbard's not ready for this." He looked me right in the eye. He said, "No, we don't want this happening." Because I asked him. This is during the time when he and I were kind of like buddies. We'd go out and exercise together, play racket ball and stuff, and he started opening up to me a little bit.
L:	And he said he wasn't read for it because..
J:	He wasn't mentally stable. He said, "There's just some things about L. Ron Hubbard you don't know."
L:	This was in when, what year?
J:	1985, could be '86.
L:	Other things that could be fraud, that you might interpret as fraud in the Hubbard estate?
J:	I know that a big battle was going on at that time between David Miscavige and L. Ron Hubbard, because L. Ron Hubbard thought his hands were totally tied. He was trying to go to other people besides David Miscavige to try to help him continue to have control over the church.
L:	That's when he went to you to do the sec check. After Hubbard got the results of the sec check, did you report to L. Ron Hubbard that David Miscavige disagrees -
J:	I reported to Pat Broeker.
L:	Did Pat Broeker get that to L. Ron Hubbard?
J:	What he did with it, I don't know, because I never heard that.
L:	You never heard if Ron got mad?
J:	No, never heard anything about Ron, never even got a thank you, which was unusual. Normally when I did things for him I'd get a response. Or I'd get a gift, a leather coat, a ring, or something.
L:	You'd think that if you had just given him the information that David Miscavige may be trying to take over the church and cut off his cash, that Hubbard, generally was known as having an incredible temper -
J:	He was having that temper.
L:	- would respond in some way. Did you think it was odd that there was no response whatsoever?
J:	Yeah.