Tape 3, August 25, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L:	What's the next thing on the list?
J:	Something about the kids. Well, what I've seen with the kids that's scary to me is that children that do survive the forced abortion rule, the ones that lived in the LA area, those children are born, and instead of given milk or you know, breast feeding them, L. Ron Hubbard figured out this barley formula that the children drink instead of milk. Just looking at it now, those children were so under-nourished, just not whole, complete children, because L. Ron Hubbard figures barley water is better than milk. This is what these children, some solution of barley soaked in water and poured over it, that's what they had. I've seen those children, 15 to 20 of them in a filthy room, filthy carpet, food everywhere, and playing. If one of them got out of line, they'd just lock them in a room and let them scream itself to death, or scream itself to sleep. They're just started out from the beginning to be cadets, like little cadet children. They're put in this thing, the little cadet organ. They make them do what's called rocks and shows, where if they do something that they weren't told to do, they have to do sit-ups, push-ups from the cradle they are punished. From the cradle the children are punished.
L:	How are they rewarded?
J:	They would have 15 extra minutes to play. Never clothes, never a thing to have, just like a tiny bit more freedom, a little extra food, maybe an ice cream.
L:	Were any of the women that were -
J:	And the parents don't get a chance to see the children but an hour a day. An hour a day because they're working on their posts, by the time they get home the children are in bed. So if they're lucky in a week maybe they've seen them maybe 4 or 5 hours. The children are basically neglected, turned over to these nannies who are giving them barley and raising the children. The children have no concept of parents and family and unity. It's all Scientology. It is just pitiful, it's pitiful. It's horrifying.
L:	Were any of these women that were told to get abortions, were any of them past 3 months pregnant?
J:	I don't know, I can't say.
L:	Let's keep going on.
J:	[Reading] "FACT sources describe a young guy who tried to commit suicide in early 1992 at the Gold Scientology Center. He was in his teens or early 20's. He was the junior of a guy named Olf, who was a foreigner, maybe from Sweden. This guy was in the mixing group with the sound people. He had brown hair, pudgy and boyish looking. Something happened to cause him to attempt suicide at the Gold Center." This person's name is Seth Thomas. He has blonde hair. His mother was Susie, Sue Price.
L:	The Sue Price?
J:	The Sue Price was his mother.
L:	The Sue Price who does the copyrights for Scientology?
J:	I don't know what she does now, she was always a management program. She was married to a fellow named Bill Price, who was the Flag banking officer in the Flag org. Seth was another child from an earlier marriage. He grew up in the cadet org, he was just a completely depressed illiterate child. He wouldn't spell, he couldn't write, he couldn't read that well, and he was almost 20 years old.
L:	Isn't Scientology the group that says it has this great study technology that it wants to get in all the schools and it will raise IQ. This was a kid that was subject to the study technology and the best of Scientology education for 20 years, and he can't read?
J:	Couldn't hardly read, couldn't hardly write. I mean write like a kid, letters not even in the lines. Seth Thomas. Instead of writing, he would print. It was just pathetic. Everyone made fun of him, Rick Crusin makes fun of him, screams at him at the tops of his lungs, slaps him in the back of the head. Olf, this guy from Sweden, tells him how dumb he is, laughs at him. Then he said, you have to do key to life because you're so stupid. This little kid was the brunt of everything. Now at this time I was working in there, this is after I'm removed, and now wherever they go I have to go with them. We're on the sound. If they went on an event they're dragging me every where.
L:	He was being harassed because he wasn't performing up to Scientology standards?
J:	Right. And he was illiterate and slow, and extremely depressed. This happened just when I was leaving.
L:	Did people know that he was depressed?
J:	Yep.
L:	Did he ever threaten that he was suicidal?
J:	Yes he did that when I was there.
L:	How did they handle it when he said that he was suicidal?
J:	Sent him to ethics, to do conditions and this that and the other thing. It didn't change, he was just a still pitiful pathetic child.
L:	Was he ever physically beaten?
J:	Physically slapped around, pushed and stuff, yes.
L:	Was that normal?
J:	For him, yeah, because he was like the whipping boy, the kicking boy.
L:	What do you think caused him, do you have any idea what caused his suicide?
J:	I think, he spoke to me about it, he felt hopeless, he felt like no one loved him. He felt like he would never do anything in life because he was as old as he was and still could hardly read and write. I've had conversations with this kid.
L:	And then he killed himself.
J:	Well, he attempted suicide, threatened suicide.
L:	And then he attempted it, and finally something happened to him after that. Do you know what happened to him after that?
J:	I heard, and this is only a rumor, that he was quickly gotten off the Int base and put in LA to be put down there to be in the cadet org down there, which he preferred, because he hated being up there at Gilman Hot Springs because of the way he was treated. He hated it.
L:	Physical punishment, have you ever seen anyone physically punished, hit, slapped?
J:	Yes.
L:	Can you describe who -
J:	David Miscavige got upset with Marty because he wasn't following some order and took a stack of folders like this, hit him in the head, then physically grabbed him and started slamming him against the walls and punching him as hard as he could.
L:	Punching him, in the body?
J:	Yeah, and in the face.
L:	As hard as he could.
J:	I've also seen him take women and throw them around. Terry Gamboa. Physically slam them into a wall. Marian Bender, another one. These women would come to me shaking and crying, like, "Oh God, somebody make him stop."
L:	He physically assaulted women?
J:	Yes.
L:	Did he ever slap them other than throwing them up against the wall, hit them with a fist?
J:	I think just throwing them up against the wall. Grabbed their ass, just anything to degrade them.
L:	Have you ever seen any other staff member hit, beaten, whipped, anything like that by any other staff member in Scientology?
J:	Yeah, John Ward. I saw David Miscavige spit in his face, punch him, slap him.
L:	Literally spit?
J:	Spit in his face. And he was held by others, Sea Org members.
L:	Several other Sea Org members?
J:	Like two on each arm, while he spit and punched and hit him.
L:	Where did he punch him?
J:	In the body.
L:	Why was Miscavige doing this?
J:	Because he said he was a traitor and treasonous to the Sea Org. He went the route out, said to hell with this. He was under that 11 man ComED [?] where they brought them, made them run around and pose and just degraded incessantly and then put them on Happy Valley on armed guard and all of this crap.
L:	Anyone else you've ever seen beaten or hit, assaulted in Scientology?
J:	There was another little guy named John who wore glasses, little mustache. He was brought in front of David Miscavige and he spit in his face too and slapped him around.
L:	Physically slapped him in the face?
J:	Yeah, spit running off these people's face. A heavy spitting period, this is late '82.