Tape 3, August 25, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L:	In other words, the case supervisors in Scientology were telling the doctors when to dispense additional medicine and when not to?
J:	They would more specifically, tell them what types of medicine they could dispense, or how often, or how much.
L:	What therapies to use?
J:	Yes, what therapies to use.
L:	What qualifications did these case supervisors have to make medication and medical therapy to allow or deny these - that then these doctors would follow the directions of the case supervisors, and not their own medical training?
J:	None whatsoever, none whatsoever. Classic case in point, Lisa McPherson . She has trouble. She apparently goes psychotic, instead of taking her to a place where there are trained professionals to help her, and to give her the medicine that she needs, they take her, lock her up in a room, put her under guard, pass notes. Next thing you know, she's dead. Those are all instructions that people in Scientology are trained to do, to deny proper medical treatment and people end up dead.
L:	Do you know any other end of case situations, where people were told "get ready to die"?
J:	There is a fellow that had something wrong, I think he had an aneurysm or something wrong with his head. I do not remember his name. He was at the Gold Base. I noted that happened to him, right as he was dying, he was told to do that. The next thing you know he was dead. Now, they didn't know what was wrong with him. I think he had an aneurysm, I know he was in extreme pain. But I know for sure that he was not taken to a qualified hospital so that he could be examined when he first started to complain about having bad symptoms or headaches. It was just take your cal-mag and shut up. Take you vitamins, get your [?] run-down, next thing you know his head blows up and he's dead.
L:	Do you know of any situations where people have died in any organization and their bodies were removed from the organization to make it look like they didn't die, whether of natural causes, so the coroner, or whoever would be going to another location, away from Scientology to examine the body and determine the cause of death?
J:	The only one that I have specific knowledge of at this time that I recall is Diane Morrison.
L:	Let's keep going with the next person.
J:	I think that's the end of that list. Margery Wakefield, I made a note of this because I just remember hearing Marty Rathbun saying Margery Wakefield, this, Margery Wakefield that. It's not a case I was involved in or familiar with, but I was just curious myself of what it was all about.
L:	You never heard any more than that?
J:	No.
L:	Margie went psychotic and I'll let you read her story, you can read it personally and see what happened, we have her affidavit.
J:	What I recall is Marty just trying to discredit her as already being a crazy person in a meeting, I'll read that and then we'll come back to that. The next one I have down here is [reading] "Reverse auditing was done on Arthur Running Bear. He did become psychotic from the auditing." I make this note because I know Arthur Running Bear. He was in RPF in the 70's, late 70's. I remember being told that something was wrong with him. He was kinda off. He was a little crazy, and that he was being audited. At that time, I mean, I'm talking 1978, '79, to change his mind about some things, I don't know. What I got from that was that he was a cultural person, with Indian cultural beliefs, and because he was that way, he was considered to be odd and strange, and needed to be worked on to change his ideas about spirituality, the role of Native Americans, and this kind of thing. In all honesty, looking back on it now, they were just straight prejudiced against him, could not stand that he was anything besides an American straight blue-eyed white person, and felt that they needed to do a bunch of work on him to make him like they were.
L:	Did you ever hear anything about him being reverse audited?
J:	No, but I know he got a lot of auditing to change him. Whether or not we're talking semantics is just another point.
L:	Have you ever heard of anyone in Scientology talking about reverse auditing someone to drive them crazy if they were a security risk, or to cripple someone psychologically so that they really were non-functional, that might be a threat to the organization? Have you ever heard anyone talk about reverse auditing, or deliberately using psychological techniques to eliminate some problem?
J:	The only thing I can think of in relation to that was this roll back thing, that they practice in Scientology.
L:	Roll back, what's roll back?
J:	Roll back is a process that I used to get daily dispatches on it from L. Ron Hubbard. What it was is a process to catch a spy within the organization. If you were having problems, or not doing exactly what you were told, you could be subjected to this roll back procedure, where they mention Sirhan Sirhan in this, where what is it? Somebody in the organization is saying something like a plant, and people who have duped by other people. So they get on a meter and do all of this fool around, to try to find out who's influencing you, how were you duped away from what Scientology is telling you to do, as opposed to what you see in here. Then they go through this whole procedure, boiling it down to a person. Then that person, quite naturally gets exploded. At that point he is given intense sec-checking, he is put under stress to do physical work, to exhaust him. They are also put on a fore-shortened schedule.
L:	What do you mean a fore-shortened schedule?
J:	Fore-shortened sleep schedule. Deliberately.
L:	Is this to wear down their resistance?
J:	And then you have to speak to a master of arms for 4 or 5 hours a day who is telling how treasonous you are, usurping the organization, and showing you this and showing you this, and just showing you what a bad person you are. It just puts you in a frame of, "Oh my God, I'm just so far away from what I'm trying to do." It makes you doubt your whole self. It basically makes you crazy. I have seen people go psychotic and go through their type 3 handling and all of this stuff from intense sleep deprivation, food deprivation, constant harrangment, and the physical exhaustion of the work that they make you do.
L:	This was done on suspected spies in the organization.
J:	Or even if you were a dupe.
L:	If you were duped by a suspected spy, they would do this to you as well.
J:	Right.
L:	Did this happen often. Did you ever hear about the roll back being used on people.
J:	Well, as a matter of fact, and I hate to say this, this is what L. Ron Hubbard piloted with me, when I was there. He would send me, he was telling me "I'm having this idea, there's some spies in your organization - ." He gave some theory about these things and then he said this is what I want you to do. It started out with just a 2-question thing, and I'd send the results back.
L:	Were you doing the processes, were you doing them on someone else?
J:	I was the one asking the questions. First it turned out to be a 2-question process. Then all of this investigation roll back, on and on and on. Then he came out with this, he said, "Ok, now we're going to check for evil purposes." Then you would have to put a person on a E-meter and ask them about their evil purposes. What is that, what is that? You had to get it from them. Whether or not a person had one, or whatever, it was just made up, it was mind-altering coercive. "I must be evil, now I'm being asked for evil purposes, now they must be there." By the time you're finished with that evil purpose rundown, you really don't know, you have no more values, no more foundation, from thought to even spring from this like, look at this now, look how crazy I am now.
L:	Were you ever instructed, when you were auditing people on the evil purpose rundown, to just keep at it until you got them to tell an evil purpose.
J:	Oh absolutely, by L. Ron Hubbard, sure.
L:	If they said they didn't have one, and the meter didn't read on one, then you would keep asking them?
J:	I would have to let them know again what an evil purpose - go over all the definitions. Then if I couldn't get them to spit out one specifically about this specific question, then I would have them to give one so similar and just word it a little different. It would be them, yeah.
L:	You would keep working, even if they would say they didn't have any evil purpose. What if the meter didn't respond?
J:	You know, it's all hypothetical with the meter, because what is the meter besides nothing. It reads randomly anyway. 99.99 times it's going to do something anyway, because that's the way it's set up. It's going to stop, it's going to jerk, it's going to do something. If you keep badgering a person it's going to do something. The meter, that's nothing.